[note: I’ve updated this post to hopefully make it more clear.]
Quite a few of you have been asking me to weigh in on Richard Armitage’s interview about cyberbullying and about my take on bullying in the fandom. I’ll give my take on the latter first.
I’ve been asked to give serious input on bullying in the fandom on many occasions, but I’ve pretty much refrained. There was one occasion when I felt compelled to make a serious post about someone being victimized. But why have I mostly refrained? Because the subject is a quagmire. And why is it a quagmire? Because one person’s bully is another person’s hero. So it’s all in someone’s perspective. And I’m no different in seeing things one way whereas someone else sees them another, and to be utterly candid, the issue of bullying in the fandom has usually not been important enough for me to wade into the quagmire. And really it’s not that important now, but I guess enough of you asked that I wanted to answer you.
Bullying in general is not something I take lightly, but in the fandom and strictly from my perspective, I don’t see it as a huge thing. Yes, I really said that, and I say it because in the fandom we’re not talking about people who are mandatory for anyone to interact with, to be continually, unwillingly subjected to. Additionally, the fandom is nebulous enough to afford us freedom of movement. It has no distinct identity. It is diverse enough for us to enjoy parts of it while staying away from parts where people are rude.
If it’s helpful to know, my policy is to observe someone for a long time after I’ve encountered poor behavior from them personally. I do this because I’m hoping they pull it around to something better. After a great period of time has passed, if the person is still unreasonable and it doesn’t appear they will change, I will usually move away from the person(s). If someone does eventually pull it around, I have no problem interacting with them again. I’m not a grudge holder. Never have been. I have plenty of flaws, but holding grudges isn’t one of them. I also don’t write people off even if I’ve been tempted at times. It’s my firm belief we all make mistakes and can come back from them. Might be a more difficult task for some than for others, but it is possible. In the meantime, I don’t have to be up close and personal with the person.
And now for my thoughts on Richard Armitage. Richard is in a different situation from the fans. He is a public figure who is expected and somewhat obligated to interact with the public as part of the living he makes. As a result, he witnesses a lot more poor behavior than most of us do. Plus, we are the armchair critics who as fans can say what we want without impunity. If he criticizes, he runs the risk of catching hell from those who disagree with him, and this disagreement possibly hurting his living.
How do I know that about his public life? I can relate to his dealing with public life in a small way because of the public life I lead outside this blog. It’s an interesting dynamic to be in the public eye where many around you have an opinion about what you’ve done, what you’re doing and what you may do in future, and sometimes you get death threats or other threats of bodily injury or at the least unsigned letters of criticism. And it’s not uncommon to be privy to others being threatened. Don’t freak out. It goes with the territory. Then add in the fact that an income may be dependent on what the public or part of it thinks of you. When I think of all of this, I cannot even process the expectations and scrutiny Richard Armitage puts up with as he goes about his business.
Nevertheless, he was plainspoken in his interview about what he deems good and bad behavior, and he brooked no nonsense about what he will accept in his interactions on social media. He was setting an example for others, and his words had a sanity and a sense to them that I seldom see or hear and was glad to witness. I’ve always loved it when a man has good principles and a backbone to go with them. It’s a turn on. Especially when the principles are girded in the Golden Rule and therefore entirely reasonable expectations. And nothing about that stance is a threat to my identity as a person or as a woman. It’s welcomed and respected. Plus, you can seldom go wrong with the Golden Rule. Oh surely there will be those who treat you the way they want to be treated, and you won’t like it. Let them know how you feel if it’s that much of an issue, and if they don’t agree, you can go your separate ways. Richard is a man who appears to know exactly who he is, what he expects, and is making it clear that whomever doesn’t like his principles can part company with him.
Photo by Robert Ascroft
Dear Richard,
Thanks for being willing to slog through the quagmire. I’m sure there are those who will not appreciate it, and it may indeed cost you something beyond goodwill. But you didn’t let that stop you, and I’m saying now and as loudly as possible that I respect you for it.
Signed,
Someone glad to be your fan
I’ve got to come up with another name for these letters. There was nothing fake about what I’ve said. I suppose they are still fake though since I am never going to send them via conventional means.
edit:
I have not been as attentive to this post and its comments as I would like, but it’s because I’m working and truly have not had time. For most things here, time is not an issue because most things here don’t require much thought or wordsmithing in order to communicate effectively or to keep from offending. That’s not the case with this topic, so I’ve been hesitant to say anything further until I could take my time to craft a comment.
Having said that, I’ve got some time to post further thoughts on the issue of bullying in the fandom. My further thoughts are a response to comments, private messages and email I’ve received since posting this piece. Also please note my further remarks are not so much on bullying in general but specifically about my experiences while participating with the Richard Armitage fans.
I’ve generally had a good experience and tend to think I haven’t been much on the receiving end of cyberbullying in the fandom because generally I stay away from places where I have seen it occurring, Pretty simple for me. Again, this is my experience. I am not speaking to anyone else’s.
Despite my staying away from places that are prone to problems, I have gotten some nasty private messages on some of the platforms where I have accounts although 98-99% of the messages I’ve received are very positive. Lately the nasty messages have been taking me to task about the Lee Pace thing. These messages have a badgering tone and sound like a child pitching a fit. My response is usually to hit the delete key. Sometimes I’ve chuckled at some of them. Maybe that’s not a good response. I honestly don’t know. Maybe I should be more offended, but it takes quite a bit to offend me. Plus, I have no dog in the RA/LP fight. Let me be plain about my feelings on that subject: I don’t care about it. Richard Armitage’s personal life is not why I’m here and never has been. Enough about that. LOL!
I have also received some nasty emails over the years of running this blog. Again, probably 99% of the emails I get are positive. For the ones that are nasty, I mostly dismiss them. On a couple of occasions, something in them stung, but for the most part, they’re from people I don’t know and therefore they have no power with me. I look at them as part of blogging, part of engaging in public discourse. Not that these subjects in fandom are usually heady, but they are still part of some public dialogue and as such are going to draw criticism in some ways. So yeah, some negative is to be expected.
I want to make it clear that if someone sends me an email objecting to something I’ve said, I don’t necessarily consider that a nasty email. What I consider nasty is when it’s obvious the sender has no desire to have a dialogue about their objection to something I’ve said or done but rather wants to tear me down or anyone who holds a similar view to mine.
When I’m on platforms other than my own, I have a tendency to ignore people who are obviously just wanting to start a fight whether in private messages or publicly. I felt silly typing that just now. A “fight” on social media among grown people (at least that we know of) and over an actor? Damn I sound condescending. But I do feel it’s beneath me to “fight” with one or more people over something that would never be a hill I want to die on — over the acting profession and/or an actor’s personal life. It’s absolutely absurd to me, and if I were to ever engage in it, would probably feel I was losing some brain cells. And I don’t need to give up any brain cells. LOL!
For preventing or curtailing bullying in fandom, it helps for site owners to make it known bullying will not be tolerated. I have made it plain that I will not tolerate it on this site. Have people skated up to the line at times? Yes. I believe that’s going to happen on occasion when there is discussion going on that has a potentially inflammatory nature. Goes with the territory. But I’m happy to report I have never had to close down a discussion by closing comments or blocking someone from commenting, and I hope I never have to do either.
Despite my generally good experience in fandom, there are some things I’ve seen that compelled me to do something. I’ve seen bullies threaten someone’s personal life. On the two occasions I’ve seen that done to someone I know, I did not sit by and watch it. I didn’t necessarily broadcast what I was doing to help, but I was not sitting around merely watching someone be threatened in a way that could have great negative impact on their life.
To reiterate, I’m sharing my thoughts about bullying strictly within the bounds of this fandom and as I’ve experienced it. This is not how I feel about bullying in general and what I know has happened in social media where people’s identities are usually much more accessible, therefore more vulnerable, and where children are involved. That is an entirely different discussion in my opinion, and cyberbullying there is much more of a concern and potential danger. I say that as a parent of a 15 year old girl who likes to get on Facebook and interact with her friends. I say that as a parent who had other teens in the house at one time and they also liked to get on Facebook and the web in general. Believe me this idea of them being harassed or threatened has been a very real concern of mine for a long time and one that I take very, very seriously, but I do believe the tenor of harassment in fandom (as I’ve seen it) is different, and that’s why I segregated my remarks about it from the general issue of bullying.
Hopefully none of this I’ve said will take away from others’ experiences or be taken as a judgment on someone else’s experiences. I’m telling you what’s happened to me, how I feel about it, how I’ve reacted, and how it’s worked for me. What others do is entirely up to them, and certainly, others may have ways of coping that are different from mine and also work. Short of breaking the law, I say do what works for you to end the bullying.
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RAFrenzy 
I’m not so sure it is correct to relate Richard’s possible observation, experience or awareness of “fandom bullying” with his involvement with Cybersmile, because Cybersmile’s work seems to be primarily (if not exclusively) with children and young people and their parents or guardians. I think the Cybersmile definition of cyber bullying is quite narrow.
Agree. I wasn’t relating his involvement with Cybersmile. My references are to his comments in the interview.
It seems I did not make it clear I was addressing two issues: bullying in the fandom and Richard’s comments about cyberbullying which I don’t believe were limited to fandom. Sorry I didn’t make that more clear.
I agree that it seems Cybersmile is primarily aimed at educating and encouraging children about this issue, but it’s important to note that there are children in Richard’s fandom and that may means there is a relation to fandom whether I was making that reference, which again, I wasn’t. I don’t know that this is what Richard was doing. I just know what he said was refreshing in that he was very definite in what he thinks. That is so seldom witnessed these days from public personalities and mostly because they have to make slippery comments they can get out of later.
Reblogged this on nellindreams and commented:
Dem kann ich nur zustimmen!
Danke. Ich schätze auch die reblog
I love that we can discuss these things in a way which allows us to come away with either new insight or identification of something we might have felt but hadn’t/couldn’t put into words. I’ve read several thoughtful commentaries on these issues and have learned something from each one. I haven’t, however, read one that had me nodding my head in agreement the whole way through. Until now. Thank you for wading in the quagmire and sharing your experiences and point of view!
Reblogged this on Just Richard Armitage.
jollytr,
Wow. thank you. Now you know that’s never going to happen again with anything I say. LOL!
Seriously, thanks!
Well said. I liked his message. I don’t believe Richard was thinking of conflict in the fandom when he gave this interview, and yet that interpretation has been applied to the interview by many. Controlling fan behavior is something he can’t do and shouldn’t try to do, and he also shouldn’t be blamed for the bad behavior of people who follow him.
While I normally agree with you, in this case i would have to disagree that bullying in the fandom is serious enough to drive fans away from even the most protected places where they try to enjoy what they love. The kind of bullying that follows people from one social platform to another, that invades their inbox and sullies their names.
However, while we disagree on this I hope perhaps that can agree than in anonymous bullying and hate there can be no “heroes”.
I read the interview, and people forget we have a generation unaware a person is more than their Internet presence. When he said he lived half his life without the phone in his hand, I can relate. (We are the same age.) Most of you remember a time without all this technology, and it raises the stakes for young people. One word, and it takes off like wildfire. Worse, we condition people to keep their head down and not get involved.
That’s what Richard and Cybersmile want to address.
At least his experiences, much like mine, ignites a sense of compassion, and the need to do just one thing. I know someone bullied at the same time I was, she turned into a bitter and mean woman. Of course always clothed in righteousness. There’s your options.
By the way, honey, life is too short for regret. :)
That comment looked shorter on my phone. :(
csprof, I totally agree he should not try to control fans except perhaps as they come in contact with him. We should all have the right to limit what comes into our space. ‘Course then we have to define space on social media. I won’t bore you with that. I think you get my point. :D
As to being blamed for another’s behavior, agree again.
But I’m not sure what he was thinking of when he was interviewed. I do know he has made comment on more than one occasion about the poor behavior that can go on amongst fans. He has been sensitive for a long time to that, and there was a recent incident, so it’s not entirely unreasonable to think that may have been in his mind. Again, I don’t know that, but it seems a reasonable conclusion.
Well said- thank you! Richard has my whole-hearted admiration and respect for what he says and does. To me it seems the words come from his heart and he is not paying lip service, but lives his life according to his words! I think his thoughts and the fact that he’s now an ambassador for cybersmile may be thought-provoking for many people- and that can only be a good thing!
Cill, I hear you and that is why I said, “strictly from my perspective.” I have not had those experiences, and hardly know or know of anyone who has, so that’s why I see it that way. That is not to dismiss those who have been on the receiving end of that behavior. It’s wrong. I just am not sure it’s as widespread as I’ve heard some say.
Excellent points, Fatima!
As to the title of my piece, I had my tongue in my cheek while I typed it. : D
Nimue,
Obviously, I agree with your assessment of Richard. Thanks for saying that! He has certainly demonstrated that he has character by how he has treated others.
Fatima, a long comment never hurt anyone. Besides, my blog theme makes text appear much more than it really is. ;p
Does it matter that it’s widespread or not? Is something any less wrong or evil because it happens to one person, 10 people or 100?
Early in my fandom experience I had this discussion with someone who tried to explain away bad behavior by this sort of, well, I guess it’s a kind of statistically-based moral relativism. At least here I can have this discussion and know that you will not be trying to trap me.
And on the subject of forgiveness:
I have let bygones be bygones (or been wiling to do so) many times in real life. It was usually damn foolish decision because the personality traits or issues that caused the first bout of bad behavior aren’t easily eradicated, particularly not by those who embrace them as a source of status or power over others.
It’s wrong no matter how much or how little, but I don’t think there is a huge amount of it going on in the fandom. That was my point. And since it may not be a huge amount, curtailing may be more possible. That’s my take on it, and I hope nothing I’ve said is a trap. I’m just saying it how I see it, which I don’t claim to be 100%. It’s strictly how it looks from where I”m sitting.
I think I may have accidentally written that last reply to Nimue when it was meant for Cill.
Cill, I think forgiveness and boundaries are sometimes bound up together when they’re two different things. It’s good to keep a healthy boundary, and I don’t think of that as unforgiveness.
Man, I need some caffeine. I think I’m off to the local coffee shop to get a large cappucino with a triple shot. I’ll take the phone, so I can reply.
It was more widespread than I thought because it took place on platforms where I never ventured, and sometimes past incidents of bullying were never in the past.
I think that at present there are some disturbed individuals abroad. in the wider fandom, They stalk and attack people who have not even declared themselves against what they believe.
Their goal is one unimaginable to a normal person (or even a relatively normal one) which is why it is hard for the rest of the world to believe that they do what they do. They are the sort of people who, even when taken up by the law or some other authority for bullying, claim that they are being ‘bullied’ by the system, or by the person whom they have driven to flight, collapse or near-suicide.
I have seen one individual like that in five seven years of being in the fandom, so I know they exist. I guess I didn’t realize this was going on to such a great degree. Maybe we need to talk in email.
‘I think I may accidentally written that last reply to Niume when it was meant for Cill’
Eh, you can only tell from looking at the email notifications. :D
Email away. :)
BTW I expect that our perspectives on this matter will be very different, but that’s good.
Thank you so much for two cents, Frenz! I’m in complete agreement with you on all points! The fact that Richard is such a sensible, reasonable man with a strong character is what attracts me the most!!!
Great that you shared your thoughts on this, Frenz, your sanity is showing again :)
I have lots of thoughts about this, also lots of admiration for Richard trying to throw young people a lifeline and help them realize they have hope & options…. I honestly wasn’t as clear on everything he was thinking about the fandom, though. I have to think more about how to express my main concerns….maybe even what they are, exactly. As time goes by, some things get fuzzier rather than clearer, in my mind at least.
I’m still clear on the fact that he’s fabulous, though! :) I’m confident that very few actors are as truly caring as he is. It’s good to not ever have to doubt that! <3
I do not know what exactly was in his mind, but I do think he was referring to things he’s been privy to. Perhaps it was not fandom. I don’t know, but it is a logical conclusion based on what we have witnessed.
Hello Frenz,
I also have witnessed only one incidence of bullying since I ‘joined this fandom’ in 2010. (Never really got familiar with the forums though.) I have however witnessed quite a lot of arguments and have lately been baffled by how serious some fans take their fandom. I find AMP ridiculous but I don’t think it constitutes bullying…
I also welcome RA taking a stand against cyberbullying. I only wished he had been a bit more concise. I read part of what he said as ‘avoid all negativity and just step away from it’.
In case of ‘real’ cyberbullying most youngsters will find that hard to do.
As for becoming an ambassador for the cybersmile organisation, let me just say that I prefer the ‘Young minds UK’ approach to ‘bullying’.
(Good to see you blogging again :-) )
I must beg to differ. Since becoming active in the fandom in very about 2 or 3 years ago, I have witnessed a lot of undoubted bullying, what you are calling ‘real’ cyberbullying. Not arguing.
Private anonymous hate, attacking a person’s physical appearance, age, sexuality and character, arriving not once or twice but several times a day.
Vicious and humiliating verbal attacks that are repeated publicly several times a day for months on end. (As far as I can determine, these are based on people’s desire to talk about RA’s career rather than squee over manips and rumors about his personal life.)
Most of these attacks can be traced to the arrival in the fandom a certain group of trolls who infest tumblr, imdb and twitter. Maybe the blogs seem like safer places, but other social media are not.
I fixed it.
Suse, I’ve talked to Cill in email, and I have seen some of the behavior she’s talking about. But since the places it occurs are not places I go very often, I just haven’t paid much attention. I do wonder if some of these platforms have a ToS that’s sufficient to get these people banned for harassment.
‘I fixed it’
Thankee kindly, ma’am.
I’ve been told that apparently some places you can’t even ‘block’ or ‘ignore’, particularly anon stuff.
Now that’s a problem. I know on IMDb that forum posters can be ignored, but I’m not sure about private messages. Never had to do it, so I don’t know. Unfortunately, I know not all places have those functions. Bummer
You’re welcome on the fix. :)
I think it was tumblr, and you can’t block anons or something. I don’t know about instagram.
I do know that some really serious hate has been directed against people on instagram in the past couple of years, so that there may now be changes in the way it operates.
There are ways of sending hate without sending it directly to the person you are bullying. On fb I know that some people are the recipient of hate via a third party, such as posting horrible things about them in groups, or falsely reporting them to fb.
These things might sound high school but they can have real life implications.
Dear Cill,
I am sorry. I don’t really use tumblr. That may be the reason why I haven’t seen what you describe. My comment to Frenz wasn’t meant to say what you experienced/witnessed wasn’t true.
On twitter, instagram and facebook you can lock your account, unfollow and block people. I used to look at the Imdb comments for a while and soon gave up because there was at least one insane person commenting on there. Nasty people are everywhere on social media, and I would only use platforms where I can get rid of those nasties.
Cyberbullying is dangerous and needs to be dealt with. The American Psychological Association provides useful information on the subject. This insightful entry provides a list of organizations (right at the end): http://www.apapracticecentral.org/update/2010/03-31/cyberbullying.aspx
Fascinating post on the subject and interesting comments too. I admire your willingness to forgive and forget bad behavior. Once I get burned, I usually give those individuals a wide berth, but if one frequents the same sites, it’s not always possible.
Hi suse3,
I didn’t think that your comment was meant to invalidate what I had seen. My observations have been from communicating with people who have been bullied on tumblr and twitter. (And btw when they tell me that on tumblr when the hate is anonymous, it doesn’t help to block accounts; some of them turned off anon asking, only to find that they weren’t able to get positive messages either).
On Instagram, the bullying that I’ve seen is mostly non-RA related but does include expressed wishes that the other person should die or be severely injured. On tumblr
I’ve been in online fandoms a long time. Back 10 years ago there was a lot of craziness surrounding lotr fandom and its subsets, including imdb. I’ve observed it all from afar.
Based on this background, I can say that recently there have been lots of insane and malicious people at imdb, particularly within the past year. Those people are there to harass anyone off the boards who doesn’t want to help them propagandize their gossip and fantasies. To this end, they have driven one poster off the board with threats to reveal personal information and have been trying to drive off another one by subjecting her to verbal abuse every single day several times a day, mocking her every word and then in the classic behavior of bullies saying that they are the ones being bullied.
I could give you a long detailed account complete with names and more, but I hope you can accept Frenz’s word that I’ve given her info, and I can produce at least a dozen people to back up these facts.
Hi Cill,
I do of course believe you and don’t need names as proof. As I said I stay away from the imdb boards because they don’t allow for any normal discussion. I have witnessed non-RA-related harrassment on twitter and I know of people who have been harrassed on IG as well (also non-RA-related). What you describe is definitely bullying. I have been lucky not to have been a victim. In RL I have learned to hold my ground but then I have more than just “some” life experience and I know how vulnerable young people but also many other people are.
As for the RA-fandom I have stepped from “silly” discussions on twitter and have unfollowed a few accounts who I thought were taking things too serious. To me it has mostly been the “fun side” which kept me in the fandom. I wish more fans were here just to have lighthearted fun :-) Richard is great but he isn’t infallible and in the end he is “just another human being”. At least as far as the fandom is concerned my motto definitely is to “live and let live”. I often wonder why others can’t adhere to that motto too…
Suse, well said.
I’ve updated my post to add further thoughts I have on bullying in the fandom. See “edit” at after the original piece
Thanks for all your thoughts, i too felt reading what you wrote that i could agree with what you were saying and that it represented largely how i felt about things too. I appreciate the fact that he is so dedicated to some principles that he is willing to act on them and especially support young people who experience bullying. I hope he is able to do more than just online support. I have to say i wasn’t surprised by anything in this interview as it was very much in line with things he has said before. Thanks for weighing in.
I think that unfortunately the world is cruel and there is always an evil Troll, which may hurt the soul, not even noticing.
I think need
1. To bring the culture of the young generation
2. The Council really help a person who got into a difficult situation
3. To be strong for stress (thick-skinned) and ignore the bad reviews.
One should treat others as one would like others to treat oneself.
Richard is truly such an amazing person. I am proud for him.
Tannni, I love your art & I hope you will never stop doing what you do, it’s amazing!! <3 I hope you will ignore the trolls, and know how many of us greatly enjoy your work! I appreciate your comments, talent and gracious attitude! <3
I read your edited post and I agree :-)
Great edited post. Thank you for putting so much work and thought into this.
Your reaction to anonymous hate is probably the right one, but not everyone can manage it :-(
Cill, I think because I’ve got so many difficult situations going on elsewhere in my life, it’s hard for me to put much energy or feel anything other than humor or nonchalance about someone doing that to me. If I were in another place, I might get worked up about it. Not sure about that, but I don’t rule it out.
Hariclea, I just hope we can all continue to enjoy the fandom without anyone being put upon. I hate to think that others suffer when this is supposed to be a fun place.
His comments in the interview did seem to be in keeping with what we’ve see so far, and I would imagine he is doing all he has time to do. Whatever that is, I don’t know, but I think he also hates to see people suffering, so would do what he could to alleviate it.
Tanni,
Yeah, I think you’re right. There are people who make it their goal in life to create problems for others when they’re having a good time. I think it’s called jealousy.
Definitely need a thick skin to be on social media with people who don’t have to face you in real life interactions. It’s so easy for faceless people to get away with poor behavior.
SH, Totally agree with you about Tanni! Keep it up, Tanni. :)
Thanks, Suse. We are totally on the same page with all of this about bullying, about Richard Armitage, etc.
You’ve had my thoughts on bullying in fandom, here are RA’s on bullying in general
https://www.cybersmile.org/blog/richard-armitage-hobbit-human-condition-social-media
Thanks, I read it earlier and am typing a post as we speak.
I really hope he can make the time to go and speak and listen to young people. Mostly because actors, people they admire, can make a big difference because they matter to young ones sometimes more than they do to us, slightly ;-) older ones. But also because from what i have seen and experienced in person he is very good at articulating himself and explaining things but also very good at listening. I know he is crazy busy but can you imagine a classroom full of pupils having a chat with Rich? fun and i am pretty sure very inspirational :-)
As for fandom, i admit the squabbles stress me quite a bit, i stay way away but still it is sort of noise at the back of your neck that is sometimes harder to put away than i wish. But i’m at the age where i’ve learned to pick my battles and prefer to expend any energies left or any pent up stuff in doing things and getting active and focusing on the bigger picture. But people put a lot of passion in things and it is i think not always easy to take a breath and step away.
Hariclea, an excellent point about passion and the wisdom in how to handle it. I don’t believe anyone handles that perfectl. We’re all learning as we go.
You make some great points about alienating one segment of his fandom, which is what happens when celebrities talk about politics. Not sure they realize this. Richard definitely strikes me as someone who knows himself very well, as you say. He also pointed out that he can be done with social media just like that, I really don’t think he is too concerned about what people think of him or his thoughts. I for one, adore his brain and the rest of him.
Altomedia,
Sometimes I’m dragging my feet! Never with my business, but my fun place does get neglected more often than I would like (long-winded preface to my reply): I agree with you! :D